Post by Stecher on May 20, 2014 13:10:03 GMT -5
Gunther mentioned looking for a laptop, and it got me curious since I don't know nearly as much about that corner of the tech world compared to desktops. I figured I'd post what I know and add what I've found out about laptops in case it helps.
Obviously, it depends heavily on what you want to do with it, and how much you are willing to spend. That's always the case. With laptops, hardware options have scaled down specs to fit the cooling and power usage requirements. As such, most parts are nerfed versions of desktop hardware. I have to admit, considering this, some of the prices were higher than I'd expect, compared to better performing desktop parts plus a monitor. I guess you are paying largely for the convenience of mobility. Anyway, specifically for Gunther who said it was for tuning the ECU on his car (Camaro right?) and maybe playing some Kerbal Space Program when away from home. I really don't know if ECU tuning benefits noticeably from a better CPU (either core count or core strength). I'm guessing any new laptop would be fine, simply providing the necessary Windows interface. KSP supposedly doesn't utilize more than 2 cores, so the stronger they are the better for that.
It has become standard for Intel CPUs to have integrated graphics (iGPU), whereas AMD has pure CPUs (FX series) and what they call APUs (A series), which is simply a CPU with an iGPU (like Intel). AMD makes their CPUs and APUs for desktop, but only puts APUs in for laptops, even when it has a discrete graphics card. With desktop models, AMD generally has better iGPUs than Intel, but in the laptop models AMD has weakened versions, while Intel pretty much holds their iGPU strength. Also, whereas with desktops, pretty much across the board, it's typical for AMD to offer more but weaker cores, while Intel offers less but stronger cores, this doesn't completely hold true with laptop versions. Some of the Intel chips are clocked so far down to save on power, they are weaker than some of the stronger, power hungry AMD ones. So instead of clearly segmented product performance as with desktops, you wind up having a big mess of a laptop market with lots of overlapping parts and capability tradeoffs. The laptop CPU constant seems to be that Intel is much better in the performance to power usage ratio. To get the same core performance as Intel, the AMD chips need more than double the wattage, and that will definitely affect battery life. A higher performing Intel, using the same power as an AMD chip, is 63% faster per core.
We're used to throwing in a graphics card and ignoring integrated graphics, but for laptops iGPUs seem to be the only way of keeping the cost down. The cheapest one I found with a graphics card was $600 from Acer, and it was sporting a Haswell chip running at 1.6GHz-2.6GHz. Anything that is advertised as a "gaming laptop" has a graphics card and a stronger CPU and they start at $850 and go up fast from there. As with the CPUs, mobile graphics cards are gimped versions of desktop AMD and Nvidia cards, that at least provide an improvement over iGPU systems, but at the cost of heat and power usage, which are higher priorities in laptops. And the price increase of course.
To complicate things further, note that i5s are not quad cores in the mobile segment. They are hyperthreaded dual cores, like the i3s. But the i5s still have Turbo Boost (dynamic self overclocking), which usually ensures they will operate at higher clock speeds than the i3s, at least when stressed. Of course you pay for that too.
So if KSP is a priority, Intel CPUs are clearly better for it, when factoring performance and battery life. At some point you have to draw a money limit, and you can narrow down options from there. Do you want to pay what it takes to get a graphics card? If you wind up settling for the integrated graphics system, it could still be good enough for KSP with settings turned down. That game has to track hundreds of parts simultaneously, which is CPU work. The graphics are okay, but not really anything spectacular that need a beast to get through it. I've read accounts from people who say they're using Ivy Bridge CPUs with Intel HD 4000 and are able to get above 30fps with settings turned down. The Haswell CPUs, even in laptops, carry the slightly faster HD 4400 and HD 4600. You can also play KSP without needing it to be smooth at 60+fps. It's not really a fast twitch kind of game, so that's working in your favor.
The OS can be a major limiting factor. If you insist on Windows 7, you would severely limit the options. There are some out there, and maybe one will fit your needs, but the vast majority of Haswell laptops are shipping with Windows 8.1.
In regards to the screen, consider size, glossy vs matte, touch capability, and overall image quality if there are specific product reviews. 15.6 inches tends to be a pretty common size. You can go smaller without saving much money, or go bigger and the premium usually kicks in. There are some 17 inchers that are well priced, but the smaller 1366x768 resolution of the 15.6 inch should also help keep the pixel count from becoming too taxing on whatever graphics setup you have. Bigger may not be better, even if it doesn't cost much more.
As for brands, the links below are somewhat informative. These are the last three years of PCMag's customer surveys on laptops.
2012 Survey Results
2012 Survey Details
2013 Survey Results
2013 Survey Details
2014 Survey Results
2014 Survey Details
Based on pure specs and mostly good, albeit few reviews, and the fact that it's on sale right now, I'd start with the 15.6 inch Lenovo IdeaPad G510 (59406709). The i5-4200M Haswell CPU goes from 2.5GHz to 3.1GHz, and carries the best currently available Intel iGPU, the HD 4600. Down to $480 on Newegg at the moment, and just $438 at Frys (same as Amazon but they sold out). That's only 38 bucks more than a Dell with the i3-4030U, stuck at 1.9GHz and the HD 4400. I'd suggest comparing anything else you would consider against this one and see how they stack up.
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834313724
www.frys.com/product/7988500?source=google&gclid=CM-0z7GVu74CFZNhfgodd4MAqQ
Extended warranties, if you want to go that route, area all different, from Newegg, Amazon, Dell (Home), Dell (Business), or you could try Square Trade.
Obviously, it depends heavily on what you want to do with it, and how much you are willing to spend. That's always the case. With laptops, hardware options have scaled down specs to fit the cooling and power usage requirements. As such, most parts are nerfed versions of desktop hardware. I have to admit, considering this, some of the prices were higher than I'd expect, compared to better performing desktop parts plus a monitor. I guess you are paying largely for the convenience of mobility. Anyway, specifically for Gunther who said it was for tuning the ECU on his car (Camaro right?) and maybe playing some Kerbal Space Program when away from home. I really don't know if ECU tuning benefits noticeably from a better CPU (either core count or core strength). I'm guessing any new laptop would be fine, simply providing the necessary Windows interface. KSP supposedly doesn't utilize more than 2 cores, so the stronger they are the better for that.
It has become standard for Intel CPUs to have integrated graphics (iGPU), whereas AMD has pure CPUs (FX series) and what they call APUs (A series), which is simply a CPU with an iGPU (like Intel). AMD makes their CPUs and APUs for desktop, but only puts APUs in for laptops, even when it has a discrete graphics card. With desktop models, AMD generally has better iGPUs than Intel, but in the laptop models AMD has weakened versions, while Intel pretty much holds their iGPU strength. Also, whereas with desktops, pretty much across the board, it's typical for AMD to offer more but weaker cores, while Intel offers less but stronger cores, this doesn't completely hold true with laptop versions. Some of the Intel chips are clocked so far down to save on power, they are weaker than some of the stronger, power hungry AMD ones. So instead of clearly segmented product performance as with desktops, you wind up having a big mess of a laptop market with lots of overlapping parts and capability tradeoffs. The laptop CPU constant seems to be that Intel is much better in the performance to power usage ratio. To get the same core performance as Intel, the AMD chips need more than double the wattage, and that will definitely affect battery life. A higher performing Intel, using the same power as an AMD chip, is 63% faster per core.
We're used to throwing in a graphics card and ignoring integrated graphics, but for laptops iGPUs seem to be the only way of keeping the cost down. The cheapest one I found with a graphics card was $600 from Acer, and it was sporting a Haswell chip running at 1.6GHz-2.6GHz. Anything that is advertised as a "gaming laptop" has a graphics card and a stronger CPU and they start at $850 and go up fast from there. As with the CPUs, mobile graphics cards are gimped versions of desktop AMD and Nvidia cards, that at least provide an improvement over iGPU systems, but at the cost of heat and power usage, which are higher priorities in laptops. And the price increase of course.
To complicate things further, note that i5s are not quad cores in the mobile segment. They are hyperthreaded dual cores, like the i3s. But the i5s still have Turbo Boost (dynamic self overclocking), which usually ensures they will operate at higher clock speeds than the i3s, at least when stressed. Of course you pay for that too.
So if KSP is a priority, Intel CPUs are clearly better for it, when factoring performance and battery life. At some point you have to draw a money limit, and you can narrow down options from there. Do you want to pay what it takes to get a graphics card? If you wind up settling for the integrated graphics system, it could still be good enough for KSP with settings turned down. That game has to track hundreds of parts simultaneously, which is CPU work. The graphics are okay, but not really anything spectacular that need a beast to get through it. I've read accounts from people who say they're using Ivy Bridge CPUs with Intel HD 4000 and are able to get above 30fps with settings turned down. The Haswell CPUs, even in laptops, carry the slightly faster HD 4400 and HD 4600. You can also play KSP without needing it to be smooth at 60+fps. It's not really a fast twitch kind of game, so that's working in your favor.
The OS can be a major limiting factor. If you insist on Windows 7, you would severely limit the options. There are some out there, and maybe one will fit your needs, but the vast majority of Haswell laptops are shipping with Windows 8.1.
In regards to the screen, consider size, glossy vs matte, touch capability, and overall image quality if there are specific product reviews. 15.6 inches tends to be a pretty common size. You can go smaller without saving much money, or go bigger and the premium usually kicks in. There are some 17 inchers that are well priced, but the smaller 1366x768 resolution of the 15.6 inch should also help keep the pixel count from becoming too taxing on whatever graphics setup you have. Bigger may not be better, even if it doesn't cost much more.
As for brands, the links below are somewhat informative. These are the last three years of PCMag's customer surveys on laptops.
2012 Survey Results
2012 Survey Details
2013 Survey Results
2013 Survey Details
2014 Survey Results
2014 Survey Details
Based on pure specs and mostly good, albeit few reviews, and the fact that it's on sale right now, I'd start with the 15.6 inch Lenovo IdeaPad G510 (59406709). The i5-4200M Haswell CPU goes from 2.5GHz to 3.1GHz, and carries the best currently available Intel iGPU, the HD 4600. Down to $480 on Newegg at the moment, and just $438 at Frys (same as Amazon but they sold out). That's only 38 bucks more than a Dell with the i3-4030U, stuck at 1.9GHz and the HD 4400. I'd suggest comparing anything else you would consider against this one and see how they stack up.
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834313724
www.frys.com/product/7988500?source=google&gclid=CM-0z7GVu74CFZNhfgodd4MAqQ
Extended warranties, if you want to go that route, area all different, from Newegg, Amazon, Dell (Home), Dell (Business), or you could try Square Trade.